Where is mahali pema peponi (eternal peace?)

Friends,

Personally I feel we are too harsh to those who use these statements;

1.May God rest his or her soul in eternal peace (mahali pema peponi). Any one knows where that place is? How do people get there?

To me I feel this statement is not wrong and it has its merits. First we ought to look at the statement semantically and understand that it is prayer to God that God may rest the departed person in eternal peace. The key words here are May which is a subjunctive, it denotes that  it depends on God to grant or not to grant this plea. No one is forcing God to take the dead person to heaven. Pastor Birai I expected you to help the flock in understanding matters of eschatology because the Kiswahili translation here does not bring out the English rendering of eternal peace. What religious people here mean is that when a person departs from this life, he/she rests from the troubles of this world. In a sense this is a valid belief because even without Christianity, we knew that people go to another life somewhere beyond where our eyes can see.

Looking at the Kiswahili Mungu aiweke roho yake mahali pema peponi we know that our national Language is an African language and hence the understanding that since we now know that there is a God who owns the heaven and earth, we plead with Him to keep the soul of the departed in a good place where spirits dwell. The word peponi here may mean heaven and if you want to know where this place is, I will take you to Genesis 1

⁶ Then God said, “Let there be ^[e]an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” ⁷ God made the ^[f]expanse, and separated the waters which were below the ^[g]expanse from the waters which were above the ^[h]expanse; and it was so. ⁸ God called the ^[i]expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.  ⁹ Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. ¹⁰ God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good

In Kiswahili this place is rendered as Anga- Mungu akaliita anga hili Mbingu. Wherever the dead go, we who are still living pray that God may keep their souls in a good place and this does not mean we are bluffing the hearers. It is God who is the ultimate Judge of the living and the dead and our prayers can never change the destination of the dead.There is nothing wrong using this statement, the only problem would be if the speaker says that this makes the soul to detour.

2.God decided to take him or her? Really? Where do people get that from?

Now Pastor you're asking good questions here, don't you think that all these come from the Bible? look at this in Job 1: 21, “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD.”

the Lord Gives, the Lord Takes Away. “...the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away...” (Job 1:21) It was Job who said these words. He  said because it was God's prerogative to create a life and also bring it to an end. It is only God who can terminate a life and when he does it, it is good that is why Job says Blessed be the name of the LORD. When David was pleading with God to spare the son he had got with Bathsheba, he knew fully well that the baby was being taken by God 2 Samuel 12

²¹ Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? ^[j]While the child was alive, you fasted and wept; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” ²² He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, ‘Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.’ ²³ But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”

So I also do not see anything wrong with this statement.

3.He or she has now become an angel and is looking down on us? Are you serious?

This last statement is new to me but nevertheless it still can be seen that there is some resemblance to a verse in the bible in Hebrews12:1-2   “Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

The cloud of witnesses here as many Christian bible expositors teach, is made up of our beloved ones who went to be with the Lord. Because the Previous chapter gives the names of such faithfuls.

In conclusion, I would like to ask my fellow labourers in the Lord's vineyard, to size the opportunity and preach the Kerygma ( κήρυγμα, kérugma) when such an opportunity arises so long as it is called today. We should not trivialize issues and start living like civilians-using St.Pauls' analogy in 2Tim.2

 ¹ You therefore, my ^[a]son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. ² The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. ³ Suffer hardship with me, as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. ⁴ No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier. ⁵ Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he ^[b]does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules. ⁶ The hard-working farmer ought to be the first to receive his share of the crops. ⁷ Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

 ⁸ Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, ^{9 [c]}for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. ¹⁰ For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. ¹¹ It is a trustworthy statement:

   For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
¹² If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we ^[d]deny Him, He also will deny us;
¹³ If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

We should be ready to explain the word of God clearly to those who ask us why we believe. God bless us.

Let us not be Judgemental

I appreciate the fact that many of us are concerned about the things of God and where Christians may be going wrong in regards to matters of faith. As we do this, let us be watchful that we should not be judgmental because that makes us equally to be sinning. I would like to state the following: First none of us knows how the Holy Spirit transforms a sinner into a child of God this is because it is a subtle intrinsic spiritual irreversable chemistry that happens only once for all. When one becomes a Christian he or she dies a Christian because our God is loving and His promises remain forever. He never takes chances He has no doubts and He saves those He has predestined to save. If one says he/she is Christian but real change never occurred inwardly, that remains a non-believer. Jesus said  Mathew 7:21

"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

What doing the will of God here means is actually giving your life to Jesus and living day to day with Him.

Many Christians in Kenya think that if one drinks alcohol, or uses drugs, or smokes cigarettes then that person ceases to be a christian. The alcohol free life is the ideal for all Christians but if there is any Christian who takes a beer or two and goes to sleep, and fellowships and does what the bible says, is just a Christian like the rest of  us who do not drink. I am not saying this so that Christians who are craving for the bottle to have a license of  drinking. What I am saying here is,  there are very many good Christians who have been taken captive by drugs and alcohol but still, God knows them and loves them. At the end of day they will be in heaven.

When in Funerals, we are called upon to speak words that encourage not those that break. We are called to console not to judge because we can not change the destiny of the deceased. All that we say will have no bearing on the departed but it can have a lasting impact on the living.

If Huston was saved at any point of her life, then she was a Christian and she is now with the Lord as it is written

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

---

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
So the Christians who spoke at Houston's funeral including Bishop TD Jake's, relied on her own testimony that she indeed knew the Lord. And the Bible continues to say in John 6³⁵ Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. ³⁶ But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. ³⁷ All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. ³⁸ For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. ³⁹ This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. ⁴⁰ For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
Therefore it does not depend on the theology one has, but on what the Bible says about all those who become Christians. In Jesus there is Eternal Life, not temporary. Jesus gives real life and that is why I believe even Harry Mumia is a Christian if he ever confessed that Jesus is Lord and invited Him into His life. God does not depend on whether we are serious or whether we mean it from deep down our hearts because He knows us ans He fathoms our minds from a far. Before a word is on tongue He knows it well. ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED all other teachings that do not agree with this Biblical standpoint has its origin in man and not the bible.

May be even Mother Theresa may not be in Heaven as we think who knows?

What should we Kenyans do?

I was reading this passage this morning and my mind started a tour of our country and I thought about myself as a christian and a leader and also those in leadership. I now send it to you and ask you to reflect on it and ask yourself if it applies to you. Ephesians 4:25-32

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 "In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. 29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

I do not know how many of us would stand and say that indeed we have off falsehood and that we speak the truthfully to our neighbours. Speaking truthfully to our neighbours goes beyond the casual dialogues we hold with our colleagues to all that we write in this forum. Do we write from the abundance of truth in our hearts or we just write irrespective of whether it is true or not? We should never forget as Kenyans of all walks of life we need each other. Write this because I followed the spat between two of our leaders in parliament who argued about praying for the Ocampo four or the IDPS. My question to us is this: are this prayers rooted in truth? Are we telling the people who come to these prayer rallies the truth? These questions go to my fellow church leaders and Christians.

In the following verse 26

"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold.
God in His sovereignty guards us and indeed in His own image He created us. Therefore He understands and knows that we can get angry. Being angry is not a sin, in one medical website

anger is described as  a natural emotion that every human and many non-human animals experience. Mild forms of human anger may include displeasure, irritation or dislike. When we react to frustration, criticism or a threat, we may become angry - and usually this is a healthy response. It is therefore not a sin to get angry and the bible supports this notion. It is what we do in anger that becomes sin. How? by brooding on anger and keeping grudges in our hearts, by responding to any written or spoken criticism while still angry and reacting to anything without thinking. The bible asks us to get rid of anger before it breeds sin. How do we do that? It is to preach about people getting rid of anger but forgetting to say how we should go about it. The bible says in Colosians 3:13 that we should bear with one another. It should be noted here that the exhortation to bear is not a subjunctive but an expected requirement of every Christian and that is why it is in the present participle describing our expected nature as Christians;Bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgiveMany of us still have grudges we never forgive those who trespass against us. Jesus taught us how to pray, and in one of the lines in What we call the Lord's prayer we pray forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. I am not sure about this but I was once told that a Jesuit priest advised one person who often got angry to pray the Lord's prayer 20 times before he/she responded to what may have made him/her angry. There is wisdom in this.

On the the same medical website it is further said that anger may be a secondary response to feeling sad, lonely or frightened. When anger becomes a full-blown rage our judgment and thinking can become impaired and we are more likely to do and say unreasonable and irrational things. This is what the bible calls sin because the unreasonable and irrational things that we may say may hurt others and that is why the bible in the passage in Ephesians 4: 28 says

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. My question to all of us on this forum is; Does what we write here befit our stature? Because at the end of the day we shall be brought to account for our actions.

Another thing to note here is that anger does not just damage those who listen to us or read our posts but it also destroys us. Medical news today says thatAnger is not just a mental state of mind. It triggers an increase in heart rate, blood pressure and levels of adrenaline and noradrenaline. Anger has survival benefits, and forms part of our fight or flight brain response to a perceived threat or harm.(http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/162035.php)James 3:1-12 James warns us leaders in the following words not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. For we all stumble in many ways. And if anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle his whole body. If we put bits into the mouths of horses so that they obey us, we guide their whole bodies as well. Look at the ships also: though they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are guided by a very small rudder wherever the will of the pilot directs. So also the tongue is a small member, yet it boasts of great things. How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! ...

28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. 

In the verse above, we are admonished by Paul to work and earn. We should never steal. Pastor Birai recently asked us a very vital Question if we have ever been robbers. In our leadership positions wherever we are and wherever we have been have we taken someones land, property, money, or anything. Have we taken or grabbed land fro the orphans or from the poor by giving them money that is not equivalent to their land? Who among our leaders is clean of this?

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

The key to leading a peaceful life is in the words above. We should grieve the Holy Spirit. What sins grieves the Holy Spirit?  bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.All these are put into one   Rebellion. Rebellion is a sin that grieves God. Take us Parents for example, if our children steal, we correct them by punishing and God does that to us too but when they rebel, we are left grief because a rebellious son or daughter does things which embarrass a parent and brings disrepute to the parents. When we engage in the sins above we grieve the Holy Spirit who indwells us from the time we became God's Children when we believed. Do you think there is Being kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you"  between William Ruto and Raila Odinga? Among our leaders? Among the Kenyan Communities? What should you do as a Kenyan Christian?

Remember in Genesis after Cain had been seized with anger? God showed him the way out of sin, and that was recorded in the following 

  ⁴ Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering; ⁵ but for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. So Cain became very angry and his countenance fell. ⁶ Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? ⁷ If you do well, ^[e]will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.” ⁸ Cain ^[f]told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

Cain did not only disobey God but also rebelled against Him and Anger mastered him culminating in the first murder recorded in History. It is this anger that made us Kenyans take weapons against our own brothers and sisters without caring that God was seeing all these. We ought to repent and seek God's face. Prayer rallies that are just for publicity and campaign against anyone makes our situation worse before God because we are taking Him For granted. 

May God bless us all.

Is sin necessary for excitement and spice?

The following was from one social group interaction. I have deleted the writer's name because I had no permission to write it. I have responded to it

To: progressive-kenyans@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:25 AM
Subject: [PK] ...Is sin necessary for excitement and spice?

If my life is taking a boring bent, how much more God's? Just last week, he was busy doing two things: Either forgiving my sins or trying to prevent me from committing any-chasing me like a dog if you please. I on the other hand was busy doing two things: Running from a temptation, (unsuccessfully and happily so), and also covering my tracks lest Mrs Owesome...you get the drift. Both of us were busy and excited.

Be that as it may, though my ATM card is back and I was obviously not caught, the big concern is how to bring the excitement back to my life. I am however starting to wonder that sin is necessary to both God and man. May I be forgiven for such blasphemous thoughts.

My words are finished.

Mr. Owesome,
My response

I would like to say that every often we try to put God in our cup tea and try to make Him fit our whims. What our good God has revealed to us through His word and through Jesus Christ is sufficient for us to understand what sin is. I do not want to play teacher here but as your brother, I would like to say that we have three categories of people; Chritians, Norminal Christians and non-believers.- The first group are regenerated sinners who depend on the Holy spirit in all the areas of life, and  therefore when they sin, they are made aware of the sin by the Holy Spirit who indwells them and when they see the sin, they confess and repent. They never make excuses, they do as David did in Psalm 51. These Chritians are discribed in the following scripture, Roman 8

⁵ For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. ⁶ For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. ⁷ Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. ⁸ So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. ⁹ But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. ¹⁰ And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. ¹¹ But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The second group I call norminal Chritians, are those who claim to be Christians but do not keep in step with the Holy Spirit. They know they are saved but they do not wholy rely on the Holy Spirit. Some become indolent and compacent to the extent that they cannot differentiate between right and wrong. These are the ones Paul describes as those whose consciences are seared as with hot iron. Their consciences can not heed the prompting of the Holy Spirit who indwells them and they continously rebel. These are described in this scripture Galatians 5

¹⁶ I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. ¹⁷ For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. ¹⁸ But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
¹⁹ Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,^[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, ²⁰ idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, ²¹ envy, murders,^[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, ²³ gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. ²⁴ And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. ²⁵ If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. ²⁶ Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

All these sins listed above are so temptious that we all often times find ourselves somtimes swimming in them. The fist letter of John 1says

⁸ If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. ⁹ If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. ¹⁰ If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

The third group is the Non-believers who do not believe in Jesus or those who are not born again. These are those who lead lives guided only by the natural law, customary law and the laws of the land in which they live. If there was no such thing as law, they as well would indulge in all eveil. This group includes those who call themselves atheists etc. They are God haters and they are the ones the Bible says that their names are no written in the book of Life. Revelation 20

¹¹ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,^[c] and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. ¹³ The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. ¹⁴ Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.^{[d] 15} And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now my brother, do not just talk of God as a thing or a prefect who writes the names of noise makers in class- GOD IS GOD. The right question I now ask you, is where do you belong? Your behaviour and life is determined by the group you belong to.

Religion was not one of the purposes of Jesus coming on earth.

Dear Pastor Birai,

With due respect I beg to differ with you on this. I have time and again requested you respond to my posting on this topic you have always ignored. Anyway that is not why I am responding to this present post. I would like to say that when you insinuate that those who gather for worship on Sunday are doing it wrongly, you are actually judging yet we who gather on this day know very well that it is not a matter of religion for Religion was not one of the purposes of Jesus coming on earth.

Religion had failed to bring  salvation to mankind. Had the Sabbath been efficacious, Jesus would not have come to die on the cross. Christianity did not by anyway replace Judaism. Christianity is not established on the law but on the work at Calvary. There is a very big difference between the gospel preached by the twelve and that one preached by Paul. The message of Grace does not conform to what you are saying here. The Seventh Day Adventists find meaning in keeping one day holy- the day called Saturday as a Christian I respect that and can never say that they are wrong or legalistic as others say. I find meaning in keeping all the days holy because of what I understand salvation to mean. Now if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come. 

Pastor here below is what God required the Israelite to do on the Sabbath, not just to assemble and sing hymns, but also to do the following-

 ⁹ “‘On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah^[c] of the finest flour mixed with olive oil. ¹⁰ This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering.

Pastor I doubt whether this is what happens in our S.D.A churches. "If you buy a cow, you take even its dung" I do not mean that the sabbath practices are dung but I am saying that when you take something you take it as a package not just what is suitable to you. I think why those of us Christians who worship on Sunday do so is because of the following verses I cut and pasted here and we keep all days Holy because all days are the sabbath- the rest-

1. Numbers 28:26
   [ The Festival of Weeks ] “‘On the day of firstfruits, when you present to the LORD an offering of new grain during the Festival of Weeks, hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.
   Numbers 28:25-27 (in Context) Numbers 28 (Whole Chapter)
2. Matthew 28:1
   [ Jesus Has Risen ] After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
   Matthew 28:1-3 (in Context) Matthew 28 (Whole Chapter)
3. Mark 16:2
   Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb
   Mark 16:1-3 (in Context) Mark 16 (Whole Chapter)
4. Mark 16:9
   [The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.] When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.
   Mark 16:8-10 (in Context) Mark 16 (Whole Chapter)
5. Luke 24:1
   [ Jesus Has Risen ] On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
   Luke 24:1-3 (in Context) Luke 24 (Whole Chapter)
6. John 20:1
   [ The Empty Tomb ] Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
   John 20:1-3 (in Context) John 20 (Whole Chapter)
7. John 20:19
   [ Jesus Appears to His Disciples ] On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!”
   John 20:18-20 (in Context) John 20 (Whole Chapter)
8. Acts 20:7
   [ Eutychus Raised From the Dead at Troas ] On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.
   Acts 20:6-8 (in Context) Acts 20 (Whole Chapter)
9. 1 Corinthians 16:2
   On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.
   1 Corinthians 16:1-3 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 16 (Whole Chapter)

It should be noted that all the disciples and the frist believers did not want to rival the existing established religion that is why they gathered on the first day to break bread and the practice is still there today. Not replacing the Sabbath because Chritianity is not a religion it can not replace a religion. We belong to the body of Jesus Christ.

May God bless you.

Paul

The Christian Perspective of the WE pronoun-TRINITY

Dear Twaha,

First I would like to appreciate your continued correspondence and I hope that in my postings there is nothing disregardful to you or your faith. Please do not hesitate to tell me if I write anything that may suggest otherwise. In the same breath I would like to say here that I believe that in our debate we are not trying to out do each other or to show whose faith is better but to get to know the points of unity on which we can build bridges and points of difference on which we can build respect and appreciation of our unity in diversity. I say this because some people have saying that they are not happy with religious debates and they will ask the moderator to discontinue them. I hope you do not share this view.

Now back to our debate. I was not satisfied by the answer or explanation given about the WE pronoun because personally I feel the explanations were far fetched and superfluous. I though I would get something new, something that is research based or based on the Qur'an specifically pointing to WE= glorification, or God glorifying and praising Himself. If you look at all the verses cited in your posting, non is expressly addressing this notion.Let us look at the following verse. You will excuse me if I apply plenary hermeneutics in interpreting the following verses. The Bible and other works of Literature are subjected to such interpretation because of Schultz(2004) writes

we try to stick to a verbal-plenary inspiration and a historical-grammatical interpretation of the Word.  Verbal-plenary means that God wanted each and every word in the fulness of its meaning written and preserved until the end of time, which is why we stick to the Textus Receptus

Verbal-plenary being the fact we must then use the historical-grammatical interpretation to ensure that we get that fullness of meaning. What did the word mean in the time frame of its use? As the argument for the newer translations goes, words change with time and culture. That is true, but we must first understand what the words meant at the time before we try and "update" them.

That is how Christian theologians look at the bible and that is why most of the time, Muslims and their scholars fail to interpret the Bible and instead bring out what the bible did not say or even pull out the card that shouts aloud that the bible is full of errors and contradictions.

"Indeed, your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne. He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His command. Surely, His is the creation and commandment. Blessed is Allah, the Lord of all that exists!. So blessed is Allaah, the Lord of all creations. "

[Soorah Al-‘Araaf, 7:54] 

The Quranic verse above if interpreted as I hove said above, is written as a direct speech from a speaker who telling the second person(you) who may be either the Prophet Muhammad or Muslims telling him/them about God He 3rd person singular. My concern was on the First person Plural which AS you and your friends said, refers to God glorifying Himself. I do not see that in this verse and even the others you quoted. The above and the other verses basically indicates that God Allah deserves honour, glory

and adoration for who He is and what He did ie creating the universe and all in it- and these acts are to come from His creation jnot from Himself. So the issue of WE referring to God glorifying Himself does not arise and the question on the WE still stands unanswered by the Quran and your company. How does the Bible handle this issue of WE? 

In the Bible, in Genesis records the following- Genesis 1

²⁴

 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. ²⁵ God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 

    ²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 ²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image, 

   in the image of God he created them; 

   male and female he created them.

 ²⁸ God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” 

As you can see, God speaks and says let US create man in OUR image and in OUR likeness. God the Biblical God in His majesty exists as one God in three persons. Not three Gods. He never changes. It is our belief that God is three persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit. To you Muslims you consider this as blasphemy but I beg you to open your mind and let God speak to you. If truly He is three persons, He will definately tell us this in other places in the scripture. I n verse 1 of the first chapter, we get this first person and the third person identified. the Spirit of God

 ¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The Holy Spirit who is the third person of the trinity was present at creation and so the son as the Apostle John Chapter 1 explains in the Fourth Gospel as follows-

1
 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ^2[a]He was in the beginning with God. ³ All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. ⁴ In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. ⁵ The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not^[b]comprehend it.
9 There was the true Light ^[g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. ¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. ¹¹ He came to His ^[h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. ¹² But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ¹³ who were ^[i]born, not of ^[j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Made Flesh

 ¹⁴ And the Word became flesh, and ^[k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of^[l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ¹⁵ John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ^[m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” ¹⁶ For of His fullness ^[n]we have all received, and ^[o]grace upon grace. ¹⁷ For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth ^[p]were realized through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸ No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Our Muslim brothers find it difficult to believe this and we as Christians do not intend to force it on anyone. The truth of the matter is, here is where Christianity and Islam part ways and never can we compromise on this except to live and respect each other's perception and concept of God. That is why I say the God of the Bible is not the same one in the Quran because they are different. You quoted either from the Hadith or the Quran saying-

(But you understand not their glorification.) means, `You do not understand them, O mankind, because it is not like your languages.' This applies to all creatures generally, animal, inanimate and botanical. It was reported in Sahih Al-Bukhari that Ibn Mas`ud said: "We used to hear the Tasbih of the food as it was being eaten. '' Imam Ahmad recorded that ﴿Mu`adh bin Anas said that﴾ the Messenger of Allah came upon some people who were sitting on their mounts and talking to one another. He said to them:

(Ride them safely then leave them safely. Do not use them as chairs for you to have conversations in the streets and marketplaces, because the one that is ridden may be better than the one who rides it, and may remember Allah more than he does.) An-Nasa'i recorded in his Sunan that `Abdullah bin `Amr said: "The Messenger of Allah forbade us from killing frogs.''

I would be grateful if you would let me know if the above quote supports or describes the Plural WE. What I am seeing here is basically the fact that Allah is great and every creature glorifies Him. Please could you elaborate on the following- An-Nasa'i recorded in his Sunan that `Abdullah bin `Amr said: "The Messenger of Allah forbade us from killing frogs.'' Is this the word of God or Abdullah's version of what the Prophet said or taught? I sit part of the Holy Quran? Is it authoritative? What has this to do with the Plural WE?

The express teaching of the trinity in the Bible is found in several verses I will cut and paste this from Cooper P Abrahams III Who did a survey of the bible for the verses and I am indebted to him.http://bible-truth.org/Trinity.html

Cooper P Abrams III

Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
         The Old Testament begins by teaching that God is One in three Persons. In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew name for God is "Elohim" which is used more than two thousand times in the plural form in the Bible.⁴   Further is the name "Elohim" occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language. ⁵   This is a plural noun, but the verb is singular. This is not a normal use of grammar. Normally a plural noun would have a plural verb. But if you wanted to teach that God is one and also a plurality, using the unique grammatical construction of using of a plural noun with a singular verb would be used. Therefore this passage teaches that there is one God who exists in a plurality.
_______________ Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness . . . "
         Again in Genesis 1:26, God is spoken of as plural. "And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . " The same word for one is used in Genesis 2:24, speaking of the oneness of a husband and wife. God sees a husband and wife spiritually as being one. This another verse that helps to establish that two or more can spiritually be one.
_______________ Genesis 11:7-8
"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."
        Genesis 11:7-8 says the LORD scattered the antediluvians abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. " God is spoken of in the plural (let "us" go down) and in the singular (Jehovah = " the existing One") at the same time. This passage summarizes the Bible's teaching about God that He is one, but exists in a plurality of three Persons.
_______________ Psalm 45:6-7 "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
        According to Hebrews 1:8-9, God the Father is speaking in Psalm 45, and He is referring to the Son as God. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows "(Heb. 1:8-9).          The question is if the Son Himself was God, why did He address the Father as God? The answer is that the Son addressed the Father as God for the same reason that the Father addressed the Son as God, because they are both God!
_______________ Isaiah 48:16-17 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."
        God the Father in this verse states He is the "Lord GOD; I am the Lord thy God." He then unmistakenly further says He is thy "Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 44:24 proclaims the Redeemer made Israel and the heavens, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Both these verses refer to the promised Messiah who is Jesus and God is saying Him Jesus is the Redeemer. The LORD(Jehovah) states that He is the Creator. Therefore the Bible is saying that it is Jehovah God, who is the Father, who is the Creator and at the same time that the Bible is stating that Jesus Christ is the Creator. (See John 1:3-4, Eph. 3:9, Col. 1: 16)
_______________ Jeremiah 23:5-6 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
        The verse identifies the person speaking as being "the Lord" (Jehovah) and Jehovah is talking about another person who will in the future come to earth who is David's descendent, a King who will reign, prosper and will judge the earth. Jehovah then gives His name as"JEHVOAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is a reference to the promised Messiah will be a man and a descendant of David. God the Father identifies Himself in the Old Testament at "Jehovah" and here He says the Messiah's name is also called "Jehovah" which is the sacred name of God. It would be blasphemy to call any man "Jehovah" yet, this is plainly the name by which the Messiah would be called. There can be no mistake that God the Father is saying the Messiah Jesus is God.
_______________ Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
        This is another prophecy foretelling the birth of the Messiah. Note that the Messiah is called "The mighty God, The everlasting Father." There can be no doubt that this passage is saying a human child would be born who is identified as God and the Father. Why would God the Father state that the Messiah, a man, is God and the Father if He was not? Proverbs 30:4-5 states God's word are pure,"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." God is saying His words are pure and that He is the Creator and He has a Son. Clearly this passage is saying that Jesus Christ (Christ = Messiah) is God incarnate in man.
NEW TESTAMENT PASSAGES THAT TEACH THE TRINITY
        The New Testament clearly says the Trinity that Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He too is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.
_______________ John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."
        The verse plainly says that the "Word" (Logos) was God. John 1:14-15 unmistakenly proclaims that the "Word" was made flesh that it establishes the incarnation of God. God can to earth as a man. The passage unquestionably identifies Jesus Christ as the Word, who was God and stating the John the Baptist bare witness of Him.         John 1:3 says that it was Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos) who created all things. " All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3) However, Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." This passage without a doubt establishes the deity of Jesus Christ that He is God and that He created all things. Speaking of Christ Colossians 1:16 states, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." Further Colossians 1:17 adds "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (see Heb. 1:3,10)         God plainly states in Exodus 34:14 that man is not to worship any other God. "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus is to have the preeminence in all things. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18). Further Jesus was worshiped many times while on earth. (See Matt. 2:11; 18:26,29; Mark 3:11; 5:33; Luke 5:8; 8:23,28,41; 17:16; John 11:32; Rev. 5:8,14; 19:4; 22:8.) Jesus accepted the worship of men because He is God.
        Obviously, there is a pattern presented by these Scriptures that God the Father is emphatically said to have created the heavens and the earth and at the same time Jesus is proclaimed to be the Creator. In Genesis 1:2, the Holy Spirit is shown as "moving upon the face of the waters." (Also see Psalms 104:30) The only way these statements can be true is that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God.
________________ John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
         John 8:58 ended Jesus' confrontational discourse with the religious Jews and proclaimed that He was "I am" which is a name that only applies to God the Father. The Jews then rioted and took up stones to kill Jesus, but He and alluded them and passed through the midst of them unharmed. What caused them to riot was that Jesus said plainly that He was Jehovah God, the "Self-Existent One." (Exodus 3:14) Using the name "I am" He identified. Himself as the One who sent Moses to the Children of Israel when they were in captivity in Egypt. The Jews fully understood what He had said and were so angry with Him making the statement that they rushed to kill Him. There can be no mistake that Jesus stated He was Jehovah God which certainly confirms the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
________________ John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
        In John 10:30, Jesus said that "I and my Father are one." The word One is in the neuter gender. This statement rules out the meaning that they are only one in purpose as some misinterpret this verse to say. It affirms that Jesus and God are separate persons, but one God, with the Holy Spirit. The verse says they are in perfect unity in their natures and actions. Jesus emphatically stated on this occasion that He was God. The Jews who heard Him saw a man standing before them and they fully understood what He had just stated. They were so offended at His statement that they took up stones to put Him to death, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32). These Jews fully understood that God presents Himself in the Old Testament as monotheistic which in their minds precluded that Jesus could be God also. ⁶   Here again the Bible unmistakenly is telling us from Christ's own words that God the Father and Jesus Christ are One.
_______________ Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
        The angel announced to Joseph that Mary was with child and the Son she would give birth to would be called "Emmanuel" meaning God with us. Matthew clearly claimed not only that Christ was born of a virgin, but that this was anticipated by the prophecy of Isaiah as being the method by which God would become a man.⁷
_______________ 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
        This passage begins with "without controversy" as if anticipating those who would deny the Trinity. It then soundly affirms the doctrine. The phrase "without controversy" means simply "obviously" or "beyond all question." The next statement "The mystery of Godliness is great" denotes the importance and magnitude of this now revealed mystery or truth that was not revealed in the Old Testament. A mystery in the Bible is simply a previously unrevealed truth. In other words in the Old Testament this truth was not stated.
         The mystery is that "God is manifest in the flesh!" This is as straightforward a statement as can be made on the matter. This verse says that God is manifested in the flesh or God is incarnate in flesh. The Greek word is "phneroo" meaning, "to make visible." Jesus was "justified in the Spirit" proclaiming that it was not the flesh that justified, but the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was thus vindicated in the Spirit at His resurrection. Some believe this means Jesus was "seen of angels" but the word is "angelos" which means a messenger. Contextually it is referring to the Apostles who saw the Lord in the flesh and preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus was "preached among the Gentiles" refers to the scope of His ministry that He came to save all nations, not just the Jews. He was more than the Jewish Messiah, but the Savior of the world. Jesus was "believed on in the world" being proven to be the Redeemer and is believed on and accepted as Savior by those who seek after God. He was when His ministry and work "received up into glory." Today Christ is at the right hand of God, making intercession for those who by faith are trusting in Him.
         There can be no mistake that this verse reveals that Jesus Christ is God and attests to the fact that Jesus and God are One.

Twaha please forgive for writing a long one. I hope our aim is not to agree and compromise but even to agree to disagree but respect each others Faith and convictions knowing that at the end of the day we are Kenyans and therefore brothers.

Paul