The Christian Perspective of the WE pronoun-TRINITY

Dear Twaha,

First I would like to appreciate your continued correspondence and I hope that in my postings there is nothing disregardful to you or your faith. Please do not hesitate to tell me if I write anything that may suggest otherwise. In the same breath I would like to say here that I believe that in our debate we are not trying to out do each other or to show whose faith is better but to get to know the points of unity on which we can build bridges and points of difference on which we can build respect and appreciation of our unity in diversity. I say this because some people have saying that they are not happy with religious debates and they will ask the moderator to discontinue them. I hope you do not share this view.

Now back to our debate. I was not satisfied by the answer or explanation given about the WE pronoun because personally I feel the explanations were far fetched and superfluous. I though I would get something new, something that is research based or based on the Qur'an specifically pointing to WE= glorification, or God glorifying and praising Himself. If you look at all the verses cited in your posting, non is expressly addressing this notion.Let us look at the following verse. You will excuse me if I apply plenary hermeneutics in interpreting the following verses. The Bible and other works of Literature are subjected to such interpretation because of Schultz(2004) writes

we try to stick to a verbal-plenary inspiration and a historical-grammatical interpretation of the Word.  Verbal-plenary means that God wanted each and every word in the fulness of its meaning written and preserved until the end of time, which is why we stick to the Textus Receptus

Verbal-plenary being the fact we must then use the historical-grammatical interpretation to ensure that we get that fullness of meaning. What did the word mean in the time frame of its use? As the argument for the newer translations goes, words change with time and culture. That is true, but we must first understand what the words meant at the time before we try and "update" them.

That is how Christian theologians look at the bible and that is why most of the time, Muslims and their scholars fail to interpret the Bible and instead bring out what the bible did not say or even pull out the card that shouts aloud that the bible is full of errors and contradictions.

"Indeed, your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He rose over (Istawa) the Throne. He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His command. Surely, His is the creation and commandment. Blessed is Allah, the Lord of all that exists!. So blessed is Allaah, the Lord of all creations. "

[Soorah Al-‘Araaf, 7:54] 

The Quranic verse above if interpreted as I hove said above, is written as a direct speech from a speaker who telling the second person(you) who may be either the Prophet Muhammad or Muslims telling him/them about God He 3rd person singular. My concern was on the First person Plural which AS you and your friends said, refers to God glorifying Himself. I do not see that in this verse and even the others you quoted. The above and the other verses basically indicates that God Allah deserves honour, glory

and adoration for who He is and what He did ie creating the universe and all in it- and these acts are to come from His creation jnot from Himself. So the issue of WE referring to God glorifying Himself does not arise and the question on the WE still stands unanswered by the Quran and your company. How does the Bible handle this issue of WE? 

In the Bible, in Genesis records the following- Genesis 1

²⁴

 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals, each according to its kind.” And it was so. ²⁵ God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 

    ²⁶ Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,^[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

 ²⁷ So God created mankind in his own image, 

   in the image of God he created them; 

   male and female he created them.

 ²⁸ God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” 

As you can see, God speaks and says let US create man in OUR image and in OUR likeness. God the Biblical God in His majesty exists as one God in three persons. Not three Gods. He never changes. It is our belief that God is three persons, Father Son and Holy Spirit. To you Muslims you consider this as blasphemy but I beg you to open your mind and let God speak to you. If truly He is three persons, He will definately tell us this in other places in the scripture. I n verse 1 of the first chapter, we get this first person and the third person identified. the Spirit of God

 ¹ In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. ² Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

The Holy Spirit who is the third person of the trinity was present at creation and so the son as the Apostle John Chapter 1 explains in the Fourth Gospel as follows-

1
 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ^2[a]He was in the beginning with God. ³ All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. ⁴ In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. ⁵ The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not^[b]comprehend it.
9 There was the true Light ^[g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. ¹⁰ He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. ¹¹ He came to His ^[h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. ¹² But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, ¹³ who were ^[i]born, not of ^[j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Word Made Flesh

 ¹⁴ And the Word became flesh, and ^[k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of^[l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. ¹⁵ John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ^[m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” ¹⁶ For of His fullness ^[n]we have all received, and ^[o]grace upon grace. ¹⁷ For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth ^[p]were realized through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸ No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

Our Muslim brothers find it difficult to believe this and we as Christians do not intend to force it on anyone. The truth of the matter is, here is where Christianity and Islam part ways and never can we compromise on this except to live and respect each other's perception and concept of God. That is why I say the God of the Bible is not the same one in the Quran because they are different. You quoted either from the Hadith or the Quran saying-

(But you understand not their glorification.) means, `You do not understand them, O mankind, because it is not like your languages.' This applies to all creatures generally, animal, inanimate and botanical. It was reported in Sahih Al-Bukhari that Ibn Mas`ud said: "We used to hear the Tasbih of the food as it was being eaten. '' Imam Ahmad recorded that ﴿Mu`adh bin Anas said that﴾ the Messenger of Allah came upon some people who were sitting on their mounts and talking to one another. He said to them:

(Ride them safely then leave them safely. Do not use them as chairs for you to have conversations in the streets and marketplaces, because the one that is ridden may be better than the one who rides it, and may remember Allah more than he does.) An-Nasa'i recorded in his Sunan that `Abdullah bin `Amr said: "The Messenger of Allah forbade us from killing frogs.''

I would be grateful if you would let me know if the above quote supports or describes the Plural WE. What I am seeing here is basically the fact that Allah is great and every creature glorifies Him. Please could you elaborate on the following- An-Nasa'i recorded in his Sunan that `Abdullah bin `Amr said: "The Messenger of Allah forbade us from killing frogs.'' Is this the word of God or Abdullah's version of what the Prophet said or taught? I sit part of the Holy Quran? Is it authoritative? What has this to do with the Plural WE?

The express teaching of the trinity in the Bible is found in several verses I will cut and paste this from Cooper P Abrahams III Who did a survey of the bible for the verses and I am indebted to him.http://bible-truth.org/Trinity.html

Cooper P Abrams III

Genesis 1:1

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
         The Old Testament begins by teaching that God is One in three Persons. In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew name for God is "Elohim" which is used more than two thousand times in the plural form in the Bible.⁴   Further is the name "Elohim" occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language. ⁵   This is a plural noun, but the verb is singular. This is not a normal use of grammar. Normally a plural noun would have a plural verb. But if you wanted to teach that God is one and also a plurality, using the unique grammatical construction of using of a plural noun with a singular verb would be used. Therefore this passage teaches that there is one God who exists in a plurality.
_______________ Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness . . . "
         Again in Genesis 1:26, God is spoken of as plural. "And God said, Let us make man in our image . . . " The same word for one is used in Genesis 2:24, speaking of the oneness of a husband and wife. God sees a husband and wife spiritually as being one. This another verse that helps to establish that two or more can spiritually be one.
_______________ Genesis 11:7-8
"Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city."
        Genesis 11:7-8 says the LORD scattered the antediluvians abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. " God is spoken of in the plural (let "us" go down) and in the singular (Jehovah = " the existing One") at the same time. This passage summarizes the Bible's teaching about God that He is one, but exists in a plurality of three Persons.
_______________ Psalm 45:6-7 "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."
        According to Hebrews 1:8-9, God the Father is speaking in Psalm 45, and He is referring to the Son as God. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows "(Heb. 1:8-9).          The question is if the Son Himself was God, why did He address the Father as God? The answer is that the Son addressed the Father as God for the same reason that the Father addressed the Son as God, because they are both God!
_______________ Isaiah 48:16-17 "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."
        God the Father in this verse states He is the "Lord GOD; I am the Lord thy God." He then unmistakenly further says He is thy "Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel." Isaiah 44:24 proclaims the Redeemer made Israel and the heavens, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself." Both these verses refer to the promised Messiah who is Jesus and God is saying Him Jesus is the Redeemer. The LORD(Jehovah) states that He is the Creator. Therefore the Bible is saying that it is Jehovah God, who is the Father, who is the Creator and at the same time that the Bible is stating that Jesus Christ is the Creator. (See John 1:3-4, Eph. 3:9, Col. 1: 16)
_______________ Jeremiah 23:5-6 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
        The verse identifies the person speaking as being "the Lord" (Jehovah) and Jehovah is talking about another person who will in the future come to earth who is David's descendent, a King who will reign, prosper and will judge the earth. Jehovah then gives His name as"JEHVOAH OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." This is a reference to the promised Messiah will be a man and a descendant of David. God the Father identifies Himself in the Old Testament at "Jehovah" and here He says the Messiah's name is also called "Jehovah" which is the sacred name of God. It would be blasphemy to call any man "Jehovah" yet, this is plainly the name by which the Messiah would be called. There can be no mistake that God the Father is saying the Messiah Jesus is God.
_______________ Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
        This is another prophecy foretelling the birth of the Messiah. Note that the Messiah is called "The mighty God, The everlasting Father." There can be no doubt that this passage is saying a human child would be born who is identified as God and the Father. Why would God the Father state that the Messiah, a man, is God and the Father if He was not? Proverbs 30:4-5 states God's word are pure,"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him." God is saying His words are pure and that He is the Creator and He has a Son. Clearly this passage is saying that Jesus Christ (Christ = Messiah) is God incarnate in man.
NEW TESTAMENT PASSAGES THAT TEACH THE TRINITY
        The New Testament clearly says the Trinity that Jesus is God (John 1:1,14); it says the Father is God (Phil. 1:2); and it says the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). Since the Son speaks to the Father, they are separate persons (John 17). Since the Holy Spirit speaks also (Acts 13:2), He too is a separate person. There can be no question that the New Testament proclaims there is only One God and that He exists in three distinct persons.
_______________ John 1:1, 14 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . .And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me."
        The verse plainly says that the "Word" (Logos) was God. John 1:14-15 unmistakenly proclaims that the "Word" was made flesh that it establishes the incarnation of God. God can to earth as a man. The passage unquestionably identifies Jesus Christ as the Word, who was God and stating the John the Baptist bare witness of Him.         John 1:3 says that it was Jesus Christ, the Word (Logos) who created all things. " All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3) However, Genesis 1:1 states that "In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth." This passage without a doubt establishes the deity of Jesus Christ that He is God and that He created all things. Speaking of Christ Colossians 1:16 states, "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." Further Colossians 1:17 adds "And he is before all things, and by him all things consist." (see Heb. 1:3,10)         God plainly states in Exodus 34:14 that man is not to worship any other God. "For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Colossians 1:18 states that Jesus is to have the preeminence in all things. "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence" (Col. 1:18). Further Jesus was worshiped many times while on earth. (See Matt. 2:11; 18:26,29; Mark 3:11; 5:33; Luke 5:8; 8:23,28,41; 17:16; John 11:32; Rev. 5:8,14; 19:4; 22:8.) Jesus accepted the worship of men because He is God.
        Obviously, there is a pattern presented by these Scriptures that God the Father is emphatically said to have created the heavens and the earth and at the same time Jesus is proclaimed to be the Creator. In Genesis 1:2, the Holy Spirit is shown as "moving upon the face of the waters." (Also see Psalms 104:30) The only way these statements can be true is that God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one God.
________________ John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
         John 8:58 ended Jesus' confrontational discourse with the religious Jews and proclaimed that He was "I am" which is a name that only applies to God the Father. The Jews then rioted and took up stones to kill Jesus, but He and alluded them and passed through the midst of them unharmed. What caused them to riot was that Jesus said plainly that He was Jehovah God, the "Self-Existent One." (Exodus 3:14) Using the name "I am" He identified. Himself as the One who sent Moses to the Children of Israel when they were in captivity in Egypt. The Jews fully understood what He had said and were so angry with Him making the statement that they rushed to kill Him. There can be no mistake that Jesus stated He was Jehovah God which certainly confirms the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
________________ John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
        In John 10:30, Jesus said that "I and my Father are one." The word One is in the neuter gender. This statement rules out the meaning that they are only one in purpose as some misinterpret this verse to say. It affirms that Jesus and God are separate persons, but one God, with the Holy Spirit. The verse says they are in perfect unity in their natures and actions. Jesus emphatically stated on this occasion that He was God. The Jews who heard Him saw a man standing before them and they fully understood what He had just stated. They were so offended at His statement that they took up stones to put Him to death, "because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32). These Jews fully understood that God presents Himself in the Old Testament as monotheistic which in their minds precluded that Jesus could be God also. ⁶   Here again the Bible unmistakenly is telling us from Christ's own words that God the Father and Jesus Christ are One.
_______________ Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
        The angel announced to Joseph that Mary was with child and the Son she would give birth to would be called "Emmanuel" meaning God with us. Matthew clearly claimed not only that Christ was born of a virgin, but that this was anticipated by the prophecy of Isaiah as being the method by which God would become a man.⁷
_______________ 1 Timothy 3:16 "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."
        This passage begins with "without controversy" as if anticipating those who would deny the Trinity. It then soundly affirms the doctrine. The phrase "without controversy" means simply "obviously" or "beyond all question." The next statement "The mystery of Godliness is great" denotes the importance and magnitude of this now revealed mystery or truth that was not revealed in the Old Testament. A mystery in the Bible is simply a previously unrevealed truth. In other words in the Old Testament this truth was not stated.
         The mystery is that "God is manifest in the flesh!" This is as straightforward a statement as can be made on the matter. This verse says that God is manifested in the flesh or God is incarnate in flesh. The Greek word is "phneroo" meaning, "to make visible." Jesus was "justified in the Spirit" proclaiming that it was not the flesh that justified, but the Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ was thus vindicated in the Spirit at His resurrection. Some believe this means Jesus was "seen of angels" but the word is "angelos" which means a messenger. Contextually it is referring to the Apostles who saw the Lord in the flesh and preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. Jesus was "preached among the Gentiles" refers to the scope of His ministry that He came to save all nations, not just the Jews. He was more than the Jewish Messiah, but the Savior of the world. Jesus was "believed on in the world" being proven to be the Redeemer and is believed on and accepted as Savior by those who seek after God. He was when His ministry and work "received up into glory." Today Christ is at the right hand of God, making intercession for those who by faith are trusting in Him.
         There can be no mistake that this verse reveals that Jesus Christ is God and attests to the fact that Jesus and God are One.

Twaha please forgive for writing a long one. I hope our aim is not to agree and compromise but even to agree to disagree but respect each others Faith and convictions knowing that at the end of the day we are Kenyans and therefore brothers.

Paul

We do not worship the same God

Dear Bro Rashid,

Thanks for your response although you got mixed up a bit.I responded to all your posting one by one. I never left any issue you raised unanswered. Please let me make myself clear here. Rashid when I read your posts, I read everything critically and with an open mind. First our bone of contention ( not a quarrel or a disagreement but a debate) was whether Christians and Muslims worship the same God and Whether the Jesus of Islam is the same Jesus of the Bible. My posit on these two issues was that Muslims worship the God of the Quran who does not appear anywhere in the Bible and the Jesus of Islam, is a Jesus who escaped death and instead an individual was crucified in his place. Rashid these issues must be looked at from these two points of view or else we shall circumlocute and our efforts will be futile. 

I never ignored any issue you raised if I did so please remind me. I also gave you a link to my blog so please any issue that I may have left out is in my blog. I do not like talking about my academic background. I do no know why you could not tell from writing that I am not just a joy rider. I am a Christian by conviction first, a theologian, and an educator. Surely Rashid you can not refer me to any scholar because what I talk about, I quote directly from the bible, you have not responded to a single of those quotes neither have you refuted their claim. In my responses to your postings I have never quoted from any Bible commentary.

Why do you tell me to check with an A level graduate? Sincerely, do you feel that I come out as one who is so ignorant of what I am talking about just because I do want agree with what you are saying? I have not doubted your understanding of the Quran and the Islamic religion, why do you doubt mine? For the sake of may be making you know me I will give you my educational background. I went to school in Eldoret, From standard one in 1971 -1978 when I did my C.P.E Joined High School and sat for A-levels in 1989 scored three principles. CRE was one of the Subjects I studied. I am a candidate of a PhD in Educational Leadership Curriculum and Instruction, a holder of an earned Master of Education degree (M.ED) Assumption University, a Master of Philosophy (MPhil.) Moi University, Post Graduate Diploma in Education (P.G.D.E) Maseno University, and Bachelor of Theology(Bth) from Scott Theological College. So when we debate please know that I am an a scholar in my own right.

 

Now matters concerning the Roman Catholic Church, it is me to tell you what the term catholic means and not you. You said in your posting that it is Paul who founded the Roman Catholic Church or the Catholic Church is based on the theology and teachings of Paul. I told that this was not so because the Origin of the Christian Church in Rome as the Capital of the Roman Empire, was not founded by any Apostle of the twelve. I have a whole paper on this topic. When you say that Pauline theology is the basis of the Catholic Church I told you that that was a fallacy because you speaking from what you were 'mistaught' by whoever. You never had any tangible evidence from the Bible to claim this assertion. You never gave any reference from any Catholic Author supporting your allegation.

Now I will delve in the issues you raised but pointing out at the onset that all you sadi here below is hearsay because it is not scholarly. No evidence and everything is cut and paste from Christian haters. 

Is there any connection between the Jesus and the Church today, if you remove St. Paul from the equation?

If you remove St. Paul and his teachings on the “risen Christ”, then the Christian Church will have no legs to stand on. Why?:

Rashid this is not a rhetorical Question as you called it, a rhetorical question is a question that is asked in order to make a statement and which does not expect an answer. Your question demands an answer. And the answer is, yes there is a great connection between Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and the Christian Church because Jesus Christ Himself said John 17

¹³ “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. ¹⁴ I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. ¹⁵My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. ¹⁶ They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. ¹⁷ Sanctify them by^[d] the truth; your word is truth. ¹⁸ As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. ¹⁹ For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

    ²⁰ “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, ²¹ that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. ²² I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— ²³ I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

   ²⁴ “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

   ²⁵ “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. ²⁶ I have made you^[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

The above quote from the Gospel of John who was the youngest disciple of Jesus, is Jesus' prayer for the believers the world over. And in Mathew 28 Jesus Sends them to the entire world starting from Jerusalem to Judea and to the end of the world.This is a connection between Jesus Of the Bible and the Christians.

You said,

     Jesus himself claimed he was sent unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel (and not to the Gentiles);

When Jesus said this He was referring to his role as the Mesiah. His duty was to prepare Apostles to reach the lost sheep of Israel. After the Israelites, the next phase of His mission was to the Gentiles and this He did through Peter first who preached to Cornelius and later through Paul. Paul is the Apostle to the Gentile I gave a whole passage From Acts 13 detailing to you that the Gentile Church which is not required to follow the Jewish religion was launched. The person given this mandate was Paul. The reason you Muslims do not find peace with Paul's writings is because He is the only apostle who has written much of what we call the New Testament. I have never tried to detach myself from Paul because he says Romans 15

 ⁷ Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God. ⁸For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews^[b] on behalf of God’s truth, so that the promises made to the patriarchs might be confirmed ⁹ and, moreover, that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written:

   “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles;
   I will sing the praises of your name.”^[c]

 ¹⁰ Again, it says,

   “Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”^[d]

 ¹¹ And again,

   “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles;
   let all the peoples extol him.”^[e]

 ¹² And again, Isaiah says,

   “The Root of Jesse will spring up,
   one who will arise to rule over the nations;
   in him the Gentiles will hope.”^[f]

 ¹³ May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Paul the Minister to the Gentiles

 ¹⁴ I myself am convinced, my brothers and sisters, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with knowledge and competent to instruct one another. ¹⁵ Yet I have written you quite boldly on some points to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me ¹⁶ to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

All that Paul is saying here is as He quotes from the First Testament as he knew it. There is no single Christian who can deny that Paul. We believe in all he said and wrote. What he wrote he received from God and if you do not believe that Paul was an Apostle God then please just keep to your faith and let us Christian hold on to what we know and believe. In the first place, you claim that the Four gopels were written by eye witnesses and the bible being full of mistakes yet you stick to the verses that say Jesus came only for the Jews. Why can you let us interpret for you what we understand by what Paul says? 

Lastly on this issue of Connection between Jesus and The Church now, I would like to draw  your attention to the fact that the bible says what it says and it never contradicts itself. This I say because you do not know why Jesus chose 12 disciples, 72 apostles and send them to the lost sheep of Israel. There were 12 tribes and gentiles are not part of these 12 so the need of having Paul as an apostle to the Gentiles.

I will repond to the remaining part later.

Paul

State and Religion

Dear Random Notes whoever you are,

It is not fair for you to posit as though you are thinking for us and deciding what we should think about. When we talk about African world view we know what we are talking about. It is you who does not what that means. Every individual has a world view which is subjective and this is past on to those under his/her custody or patronage. With this I mean a world view may be passed on to one's family. However, an individual modifies or adds on what he she received from his her family. This trend takes a wider fulcrum when it comes to community, country,and continent.

We all know that Africa is diverse and that is why I deliberately used JS Mbiti's coined phrase African Religions and Philosophies, meaning there are as many religions in Africa and many philosophies as there are many cultures. Other writers like the late Adeyemo, and the late Tite Tienou, Dr. Richard Gehman and Mugambi have said before that the African is "notoriously religious". That is to say that there is nowhere in an African's life where religion is absent. Chidi Isizo  in http://afrikaworld.net/afrel/areopagus.htm Quotes Mbiti saying that Africans are notoriously religious be they exposed to western influences or not. Mbiti is quoted saying that wherever the African is, there is religion. It permiates every aspect of the African life. He carries it to the fields where he is sowing seeds, or harvesting a new crop; he takes it o a beer party or to attend a funeral ceremony. I will cut the entire part and paste it here so that you may understand that Africans had worldviews and religion is part of it.

"Africans are notoriously religious."(3) This assertion can be verified in the lives of most Africans, be they exposed to the Euro-American influences or not. Religion permeates every aspect of the African life.(4)  Mbiti expresses this religiosity forcefully: 
 Wherever the African is, there is his religion: he carries it to the fields where he is sowing seeds or harvesting a new crop; he takes it with him to the beer party or to attend a funeral ceremony; and if he is educated, he takes religion with him to the examination room at school or in the university; if he is a politician he takes it to the house of parliament. Although many African languages do not have a word for religion as such, it nevertheless accompanies the individual from long before his birth to long after his physical death.(5)
J. E. Holloway presents the same point thus:

• Religion was (and remains) a vital part of the lives of most Africans. For some it encompassed their entire existence. It substantiated and explained their place in the universe; their culture, and their relationship to nature at large. Religion among most African ethnic groups was not simply a faith or worship system; it was a way of life, a system of social control, a provider of medicine, and an organizing mechanism.(6)

Right from the womb, through birth, infancy, puberty, initiation, marriage, and funeral, many African societies have religious rituals for each phase of life.(7) Each day begins with prayer, offering of kolanut and pouring of libation. Each major step in the life of any given traditional community involves certain consultation of fortune-tellers and diviners to ascertain the will of God and the spirits. It is rare to find any act, human or otherwise, without some religious explanation for it.

This describes what we may call a worldview or worldviews.

I also think that you are failing to see what we are seeing when you say that

 When the religions take a fundamentalist approach to politics they can hurt a democratic system because fundamentalists are by definition unwilling to compromise.I hope you believe that Democracy is the ideal mode of governance and therefore we have it in Kenya. You presume to say that Electing whomever we may is democratic whether the one elected is corrupt, a drug dealer, or even a tribalist. Religion does not destroy democracy it only shows that although democracy is said to represent the wish of the majority, the majority have many times been wrong and this can be seen in the Kenyan issue. The majority elected the drug dealers in our government, the Majority elected the Post Election Violence perpetrators, the majority would want KENYA to pull out of ICC, the Majority would want Kibaki to continue in office etc.

I do not agree with you that Promoters of religious control of state use dubious arguments and attempt to conflate morality and religion, the two are very independent concepts. You can never separate morality from Religion because doing so would be the real wishful thinking. From Socrates, Pluto, Andante and even Aquinas, morality was thought of from a religious point of view  and all these philosophers had a form of religion they ascribed to. When we talk of religion we do not limit ourselves to Christianity,  Judaism, Islam and Hinduism or Zoarastrianism. Every community on the face of the earth had a belief system. I know you always argue from a humanism or atheist point view but let me inform you that you are living in your world of illusion because there is nothing like atheism. I mean atheism is not a reality, it represents a bunch of people who do not have a purpose of their existence, It is like the four blind men in a dark room looking for a dark cat that is not there. that unless it is a religion.

You also said that Separation of religion from state is a natural evolution of human societies after the missteps in history that religious governments made.This is an unfortunate statement coming from someone respectable like you. What do you mean Natural evolution? Do we have other evolution that are not natural?Which religious governments are you referring to? Separation of religion and state, is not as a result of the so called missteps in History. There is no single state in the world that has succeeded in separating the two. What happens is that when a society decides to abandon their belief system, there remains a space and since there can be no empty space, another form of a belief system occupies the once empty space.

 Iran under Ahmadinejad and Afghanistan under the Taliban are not examples of religious governments. Terming them so would mean that even Alkaeda, and Al shabaab are viable governments.  The reasom you see most countries failing like the Taliban Afganistan and Somalia, is that secularism in the form of humanism, democracy, capitalism and atheism were slowly introduced taking over the religious faculty in the society's thinking and belief system and when that happens, the members of a society become agitated with doubt,  mental conflict and filled with pain because they can not get answers to life's questions like: Why was I born? Why am Here? What am I living for? What does life mean? What is reality?. Where do the dead go to? I s there an end to suffering? Where did the world and Universe come from?

The distraught members of the society who grapple with these questions then in turn become a fertile ground for those who take advantage of the existing gap created by the questions above in the name of "Religious extremist" Like Al Shabaab who present (especially to the youth) a form of religion that molds them into suicide Bombers, and mercenaries who can kill their own people. Read about Elgiver Bwire- A kenyan who became a Muslim (pictured below)and almost killed his mother without Knowing-

news.yahoo.com/photos/grenade-blast-at-pub-in-kenya-s-capital-1319465541-

When we insist that true and correct religious Education must be taught in Schools, we would to arrest the situation otherwise  the world will never be a safe place whether we all become humanist or Atheists. We have governments whose leaders embraced religion and they succeeded. Malaysia, Thailand, Libya before the death Of Gadaffi, South Korea and Turkey.

You also said that in the past Christian societies promoted divine rights of Kings, serfdom, the inquisitions and the violent crusades all of which very clearly demonstrate that religions are not the best custodians of state power. This is yet another unfortunate statement from you. I do not think that all those kingdoms in the world including Swaziland, Japan, Thailand,Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Nepal, Cambodia, Norway, and the United Kingdom were or are promoted by Christians or Christianity. Christianity has always stood for fair governance of all, justice, peace and freedom from oppression. Any King or Ruler who did not lead according to the above statutes was never honoured. Any King who led well was called King so and so The Great. Where justice prevailed, nations prospered. The crusaders were not Christians but people who called themselves Christians. Imagine if all of them lived like Jesus Christ, would they manufacture bullets and nuclear bombs? If Jesus were to live now, would he have agreed with the USA NATO and the UK to kill Gadaffi and his sons?

Religion should be taught in our public schools by qualified teachers.  In Primary schools, pupils should be taught Religious Education covering all the world Religions. At secondary level, students should choose one of these ATR/ IRE/CRE/HRE/ .Islamic sponsored schools  sound Islamic Education should be taught and if a Christian wants his/her children to go that Islamic school, he/she must follow the schools policy.i.e take Islamic studies as a compulsory subject. This should also apply to Christian sponsored schools. Schools like Makini, Rusinga and the like whose proprietors may be Christians, are private and therefore whatever policy in regards to the subjects to be studied should be left to the owner and if a parent wants his/her children to study there, then He should follow what the school requires. 

Paul