Wednesday, November 9, 2011

Dear Bro. Rashid,
Shukran for your salute of peace from the world of Islam. It was good reading from you although you either misread my posting or eisegeted (read meaning into) what I said. However, I agree with you that may be in our discussions some benefits may accrue. Actually I did not at any time say  the bible is an encyclopaedia of 66 books (+ the extra catholic ones) authored by fallible men. It is not "the word of God", it is "about the word of God" (commentary and interpretations). What I said expressly was that the bible is a library of 66 books written by multiple writers as they were led by the Holy Spirit of God. I base this on what Peter the Apostle of Jesus and an eye witness of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote. Emphasis is in bold. 2 Peter 1: 

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.
 19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

The above quote comes from one writer of the Bible who was among the first followers of Jesus. To say that the bible was written by fallible men does not make the bible fallible. The bible is never contaminated as you put it. The Bible is the word of God Jehovah or Yahweh the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac the creator of heaven and earth - and I say again, Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. The God of the Bible is very different and it is high time Muslims understood this. The attributes of Allah are different from that God of the Bible who identifies Himself as Triune-one God in three persons- you need the Spirit of God to believe in this. Non-Christians and those who claim to be Christians but have not put their faith in Jesus Christ can not comprehend this teaching.
  • Bro. Paul, please understand the zealous and passionate posting by my brother Muslims such bro. Twaha is in reaction to the uninformed Christians who tend to think that the Bible contains uncontaminated divine revelations.
Brother Rashid the Bible does not contain contaminated divine revelations. The is the divine revelation to the lost world and it is the only book that is God's full revelation to mankind written in a span of many years covering the Lives of Adam, Noah until the last Apostle of Jesus to die- John who wrote the Book of Revelation. Bro. Rashid please it is not right to say that the New Testament  was written by third hand witnesses. Mathew was a disciple of Jesus, Mark was a companion of the Disciples and he must have witnessed what he wrote because he wrote with much authority and what he wrote corroborated with what written in the other gospels of Mathew, Luke and John.

The bible does not contain inaccuracies as you said. I said the versions or the translations we have do have ditto graphical errors courtesy of human error. I have a whole bunch of Quranic textual criticism that show that there exists discrepancies in the compilation of the Quaran hence the origin of the Ahmadias, the Sunnis, and Shias. I do not like critisizing the Quran because it is a Holy book believed by many people and I benefit no one by doing so. My wonder is, most you muslim as so much concerned about the negatives written by scoffers( Emphasis in bold.) as in 2Peter 3

1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
 3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Bro Rashid The Roman Catholic Church was not founded on the teachings of Paul whatsoever. Paul was a citizen of the Roan empire but a Jew and  a pharisee.  When he wrote his letter to the Romans, he had not visited Rome. What I want you to know today is that in The New Testament, there are two groups of believers or Churches. First there is the Jewish believers and second the Gentile or non-Jewish believers. The present true Christianity must recognize this divisions because that exactly what God intended to bring all people into one. At present I belong to the later group. Read Acts 9 (Emphasis in bold) The 12 were send to the Jewish group and Paul was send to both but with a strong commission to the non_Jews. No where in Church history is Paul accredited with founding the church in Rome. That is therefore a fallacy on your part.

5 But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”
 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.


Paul was never questioned by the 12 and was never rejected or refused this is what the Bible says Read Acts 9


 26 When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Lord and that the Lord had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.28 So Saul stayed with them and moved about freely in Jerusalem, speaking boldly in the name of the Lord. 29 He talked and debated with the Hellenistic Jews,[a] but they tried to kill him. 30 When the believers learned of this, they took him down to Caesarea and sent him off to Tarsus.
 31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace and was strengthened. Living in the fear of the Lord and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it increased in numbers.
What is reported in the above is that the disciple feared him because they did not really believe that he was one of them. He had been their adversary. They did not refuse him. This is a fallacy on your part. Where did you get this? What you would have said correctly is that without the Teaching of Paul there would not be a gentile church as we know it today, not the Roman Catholic Church.

In  my posting, I did not mention Sulman Rushdie, where did you get him? I just quoted a verse in the Quran and I asked explanation. It was not from the Hadith as you are trying to say. I gave even the Sura. I have a Quran and I can read the same verses. I do not read the Hadith. More so I never doubt the authenticity of the Quran. What I do is that I do care if it is authentic or not because it does not add any value to my life as a Christian BECAUSE I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS OF LIFE IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE. I will now respond to what you called "universally acknowledged historical Facts" I do not know acknowledged by who?


Let me hold your hand briefly as we stroll through the History of the Church (or the post-Christ era). To avoid controversy, I will confine myself to universally acknowledged historical facts (bare of opinions):

  • When Paul (formerly Saul, the persecutor of Christ's followers) had "a change of heart" and subsequently went to the 12 Disciples of Jesus, they, after questioning, flatly refused him. TRUE/FALSE
  • Only St. Barnabas, one of the senior and respected disciples agreed to work with him in the mission of "spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ". After a short time together, St. Barnabas disagreed with Paul's "teachings" which were contrary to the teachings of Jesus. They thus parted company. Where do you get this information? could you please give references of renowned Christian schorlars? Do not give me the crap of the Gospel of St. Baranabas written by Muslims. TRUE/FALSE 
  • So from the onset there were 2 distinct groups preaching distinctly different messages of Christ. TRUE/FALSE;
  • The original group (12 disciples) preached to the Jews (as did Jesus) whereas Paul decided to extend his mission to the gentiles (unlike Jesus). TRUE/FALSEHe did not decide to extend he was send by the risen Jesus Christ so this makes your statement false.
  • Paul sought, and eventually got the support of the Romans (Gentiles). With backing from the "Rulers" (Romans), Paul's group and followers were able to 'evangelize' rapidly their version of 'christianity'. TRUE/FALSE;
  • Meanwhile the genuine/original disciples of Jesus started facing [persecution at the hands of the Romans who supported St. Paul faction. Infact many of the original disciples faced brutal death (including St. Peter-the Rock on whom Jesus said he would build his Church). The disciples were not persecuted by the Romans but by their fellow Jews and Jesus had many disciples Including Stephen the first martyr. Even Paul was persecuted by both Jews and the Romans TRUE/FALSE;
  • The 12 Disciples and followers were again on the run. Those that survived sought refuge in North Africa (these were what historians refer to as Unitarians i.e believers in One God as opposed to the Trinitarians of St. Paul's doctrine). This is a fallacy too because Peter went to Rome where he died, Thomas went to India, and some went to Europe.For your information Paul the Apostle never mentioned the word Tinity  he is not the author of the doctrine. God as triune is a doctrine taught in the entire bible from Genesis to Revelation . The information here is not supported by historical facts. therefore this is TRUE/FALSE;
  • 400 years later, these were to join the new Unitarian religion as professed by the followers of Prophet Mohammed (S)....Others remained Christians but to this day reject the doctrine of the Triune God, salvation through death of Jesus, or the divinity of Christ.This is wishful thinking and it does not merit mention  TRUE/FALSE;
  • In AD. 325 at the Conference at Nicea presided by Emperor Constantine, the Bible as we know it today was complied. The Doctrine of Trinity was made the official Church doctrine ( the Unitarians were finally defeated).The Bible WAS  never compiled at this conference. The Bible was there, it had preceded the Quran and even Prophet Muhamed though illiterate must have heard about it when he had an encounter with Christians. Could you please tell me who are these people called the people of the scripture? What is this scripture if not the Bible? Read the Holy Quran 3:64 Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."
  • 3:64  
  • TRUE/FALSE;
  • The followers of St.Paul ascended the church's hierarchy and Roman leaders took up the position of Pope. where do you get this? Supporting reference? TRUE/FALSE;
  • So the Roman Catholic Church (and the breakaway Protestants) as we know it today owes its very existence on St. Paul....its theology has no basis save in the teachings of the Gospel according to St. Paul. What do you mean has no basis? it is true that the Gentile Church owes it to the Apostle Paul because he was the Apostle sent to them by Jesus. But basis of all True Christian Theology is based on the Bible and the person of Jesus Christ. TRUE/FALSE
  • Does the name alone not say the whole story???? What name?

I will now deal with the following part giving you reason as to why I believe the God of the Bible is not the God of the Quran.

Do Muslims worship and believe in the God who created Adam? the answer to this question is No because the Quranic Adam was created differently,

3:59

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

The Biblical Adam was created by God from the dust of the earth and God breathed in his nostrils and Adam became a living being. The difference between these two Adams is that whereas the Biblical Adam was created in God's Image male and female, the Quranic Adam was created from clay and Iblis was asked to breath into him and refused. The Quranic Adam was told to be and he was just like the other creatures. The Biblical Adam is different. Contrast the two accounts The Quran above and the Bible here below. They are not the same Adams. Genesis 1 (Note the plural pronoun)

26
 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 27 And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
 28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food:
 30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so.


Do Christians worship and believe in the God who created Adam? Yes the biblical Adam Not the one in the Quran.

Do Muslims worship and believe the God of Prophets Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ismail, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Harun, David, and Solomon, Elijah, Ayub, etc? No because the Bible designates all these to be the protypes of Jesus Christ who was preached by the Apostle Paul. 

Do Christians worship and believe the God of Prophets Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ismail, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Harun, David, and Solomon, Elijah, Ayub, etc? Yes;


Do Muslims worship and believe in the God who sent Prophets Jesus and Mohammed? Yes they worship that God who send Prophet Issa Bin Mariam who did not die on the cross but played tricks to evade death.

DoChristians worship and believe in the God who sent Prophets Jesus and Mohammed? No. They worship Yahweh the triune God the Father of Jesus Christ. The Jesus of the Bible is different because He came and died and rose again. According to the law of non-contradiction there exists no two different accounts that can be both true. One is true and the other is false. So the best way out of this, is that the God of Prophet Muhammad is not the  God of Jesus Christ. More so Jesus is the son of God, prophet, High Priest and King Of Kings. 
is 
Bro. Paul, do you believe the God you worship created the Muslims (such as Khuzeima)? I believe He is their creator but they do not want to acknowledge Him as their God? They say their God is called Allah

3:62


Indeed, this is the true narration. And there is no deity except Allah . And indeed, Allah is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.


Bro. Khuzeima, did your God create Paul? Is Paul's Creator not his God? Is this not the God you Worship? Khuzeima's God did not create me.

You gentlemen worship the same God, only your understanding of Him and His attributes differ. Logic dictates that since your views of God are in opposition to the other....One of you is wrong, the other is right...but both of you cannot be Right. This is very true. One of us wrong and only the last day will reveal who.
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Paul does your Bible talk about the Triune God? If not, then whence comes such thoughts....from your namesake perhaps? I have talked about this before but to say it again is appropriate. Yes my Bible talks about the triune God and it is the central doctrine of Christianity. 

Come brother lets reason together and dig deeper into this matter. There we go. Let me hear from you.
Paul

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